If I ever had hope…   5 comments

that Mythic is going in the right direction..Kai Schober aka Sterntaler pretty much wiped it away.

Caution..German language incoming (quote from waaagh.de) ;)

Sylow schrieb:

In einem Satz zusammengefasst ist die Mythic-Aussage: “Wir wollen es richtig machen, also nicht nur ein Pflaster aufkleben, aber auf keinen Fall werden wir das riesige, schlecht angebrachte und nicht überdachte Pflaster der versteckten Levels über RR80 entfernen.”

Das stimmt so nicht. Die versteckten Level werden zwar nicht entfernt, aber reduziert. Ich finde, man kann nicht alles gleich machen und einen gewissen Bonus sollte man Spielern, die in den Raengen aufsteigen, bieten.

Let me (freely) translate it for you..

Sylow complained/translated the physical mitigation discussion so that Mythic’s statement is “We want to do it right and not just put a band-aid on it, but we don’t want to remove that big, badly attached and designed band-aid that is the hidden levels above RR80.

To this Kai replied, that the hidden levels will not be removed but reduced. He doesn’t believe that everything should be equaled and players should gain certain bonuses if they gain ranks.

Ok.. I tried it..You must believe me that I tried not to rant on every post I make here, but Mythic is just giving me so much opportunities that I just can’t resist ;)

This hidden level crap is so wrong on so many levels that I just can’t believe it that anyone trying to play a competetive game is really thinking that this is the right way for a diverse community as WAR has to actually have fun fights around.

In T1-T3 you gain a buff if your rank is below a certain rank.. in T4 you don’t need such crap and earned the right to be one-shotted by someone who has just enough spare-time to grind RR. What a fun..yep.. that’s why we are playing. To experience a rank-difference at the end.. scenarios are boring as hell because it ends on either one of the camps.. RvDoor is actual as ever..and boring as ever. But hey..people gain RR and that must be enough. Edit as Ilanaya reminded me on something I wrote on Waaagh.de before it got deleted: Remove the RvR bolster in lower tiers, because people should have advantages for having more ranks..

Why has progression end with “power”? If people at Mythic realize that there is more to progression than only increasing stats, i.e. damage, healing, etc.. then..maybe then we can have a game that has the possibility to be more active about fighting and not maximizing renown ranks. You guys design a RvR game.. fighting should be the fun.. In a PvE game you can put in some of those disparities between ranks, because it doesn’t matter realm wise..but not in a RvR game. There such rank disparity is killing the game.  So stop thinking like you are designing a PvE game.

I have a dream.. A dream where people fight each other (sorry for that ;) ) because it’s fun and a challenge.. not because it only gives renown and gear.

Karic (doomdiver.wordpress.com)


Posted March 22, 2011 by Karic in WAR

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5 responses to “If I ever had hope…

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  1. Wow. I get quoted here. Anyways, i fully agree with this posting. There’s plenty of ways to go by going up renown ranks.

    It’s not like higher RR doesn’t give any advantages. Even if the hidden levels get removed, you still gain 20 points of renown to spec. That’s still 60 attribute points (equaling 3 talisman slots) or alternatively two renown abilities, more crit or less chance to be crit or whatever you choose.

    So, the advantage of higher renown still exists even if the hidden levels get removed alltogether.

    And on gear, i also think that horizontal progression is the way to go. Currently each new set of armour is “bigger, better, harder”.

    My approach, taking healing gear for example, would be:
    – Annihilator is the basic set. It provides healing stats, along with a mix of life, initiative and toughness. Higher set boni would be something like “two levels on the group heal” and “reduces costs for all direct heals by 5%”.

    – Conqueror would be the first damage set. It also fields a mix of life, initiative and toughness, but has Intelligence instead of willpower. (Strength for DoK/WP. ) Higher up set
    boni would be like “+5% damage” and “reduced costs for all damage abilities by 5%”.

    – Invader would be a different healing set. While having similar (but slightly different) attribute boosts to Annhilator, the special boni would be different. This one would perhaps bolster Heal over Time or single target heals and the highest set bonus would be that the debuff removal now removes two or three debuffs at once.

    – Warlord would then be the liftap set. Attribute modifiers again similar to the Conqueror set, but it would not boost pure damage abilities but increase lifetap abilities. With the highest bonus being +20% healing done by lifetap abilities.

    This game can be continued throughout the next six sets (two of Sov, Wf, DF each) easily.

    As a result, already the healer in Annihilator would have his basic healing tools available and could do the job. If he wants to be able to fill more than one healing role, he must qualify for the higher armours and have them available. This would give a more level playground (higher renown player would still have the renown spec advantage) while at the same time providing incentive to grow your RR.

    • “It’s not like higher RR doesn’t give any advantages. Even if the hidden levels get removed, you still gain 20 points of renown to spec. That’s still 60 attribute points (equaling 3 talisman slots) or alternatively two renown abilities, more crit or less chance to be crit or whatever you choose. ”

      The problem Mythic have is that if they change 20 ranks above 80 to not matter much, they might be trivial enough for people to not want to grind them out. Which means they would need to make it much easier to get to rr100, which in turn means the “expansion” didn’t do much in terms of keeping people playing (and paying). In short they need to balance the desire to get the higher ranks with the power gained with attaining them.

      The problem they have on their hands is quite hard to solve. But since they got themselves into this mess by expanding the game in such a half-arsed manner, I don’t feel any pity for them.

  2. So the line of thought is, that people only play as long as they can “progress” their character and become much stronger than everybody else?

    I agree that this mindset is what keeps PvP games, most prominently WoW, up and running. Although, even there it’s not the “always better gear” but just “new challenges” which keep people active. Indeed i believe that if WoW would just create an insanely hard instance, which drops gear of adequate quality to what’s already available, but with very distinct visuals, that instance would be quite popular. Simply having that elusive equipment would give plenty of “bragging rights”, which would keep people on their toes. (Like old time SWG, where my guild raised attention by us all wearing a very hard to get backpack. Like any other backpack in the game, it held 50 items and did nothing else, but it had a unique visual style. Getting all of us into “uniform”, which is same armour with same colors and the unique backpack was quite some effort, but the reaction of other players was worth it. )

    Anyways, even if i am wrong and the mindset of “always needing better gear” is indeed the driving force behind PvE MMOs these days, i still doubt that it is on PvP.

    If progress of power is indeed the driving force behind PvP games, things like Starcraft (also Starcraft 2) and any other RTS are as impossible to explain as any first person shooter or some other PvP oriented MMOs, with Guild Wars being the most prominent of them. Heck, there are even Beat ’em up tournaments and leagues active, where the games were not changed since years, and they yield constant profit for the producers.

    Any of the mentioned examples don’t save any “substantial” progress. There are first person shooters where you pay a monthly fee to play. They provide regular updates and a ranking league, sometimes along with some visuals in game, to display your rank and veteran status. They don’t provide any in game advantage. You might earn yourself some advantages within a match. But when the match is over, you’ll start with the same properties as anybody else in the next match again, the only thing you keep is your game rank, so you can show off.

    The very similar thing is true for RTS, with Starcraft being the most prominent example. League fights, TV transmissions of games in South Korea, lots of cash made that way, and of course the international ranking ladder on BattleNet. Still, every match you again start with 5 workers and your control center, no more, no less. All your hundreds of won or lost games won’t affect this at all.

    No matter how long you play and of those games, you won’t deal or survive one more point of damage than the newbie next to you, you won’t start with even one unit of ore or gas more than any other player. So why are those games played, and are even so massive financial successes?

    That’s something WAR should think about. For the answer mostly is “fun”. Games are played as long as they are fun, and a fair challenge and good competition is way more fun than grinding up some more RR to then be bored when smacking down people of lower RR.

    • My comment applies purely to the subject in question, which is WAR. Nowhere have I stated that all PvP games are based on progression. That is purely your invention.

      Distinction between PvP games is of utmost importance when considering what makes them “tick”. Most PvP games are played for the thrill of competition, because it’s mechanics are fun or as a distraction, something that you can occupy your mind with (FPS, RTS, DotA, fighting games). But you can’t regard MMO PvPs as your standard PvP games because of the nature of the underlying MMO genre. Something I wrote in depth about on my blog (I won’t be linking it here).

      Progression is the single driving force behind MMOs these days and any other game aspect will be considered of lesser importance. Thus PvP will take a backseat and will be a slave to progression. There isn’t much a developer can do to solve the gear over skill problem if their game is based on progression. Also, gameplay and the fun you get from simply combating the enemy will be of secondary importance, since players can be lulled onto the progression treadmill quite easily, rendering the game’s need to entertain with gameplay unnecessary.

      That’s what most MMOs are like and WAR is no different because of it’s design. There’s nothing that can be done to fix it now, Mythic can only attempt to balance things and hopefully satisfy both sides, the one wanting progression of power and the one wanting PvP. Those two concepts don’t mix and never will.

      If you want to continue the conversation I suggest you send me an email (you can find it on my blog). I think we’ve strayed offtopic and are cluttering the comments.

      PS: I never would consider WoW to be a PvP MMO. Most of it’s scope is PvE, with PvP as an addition.
      Oh and if you’re talking about SC2, you start with 6 workers. I wouldn’t know about the original though. ;)

  3. Trying to keep my answer short. Although i don’t think we’re straying off topic here.

    1. On “PvP” and WoW, typo. I only noticed it after i sent the text, but i thought the complete context of the passage made it obvious. Massive progression = PvE game.

    2. I only mentioned it shortly: Guild Wars. It’s persistent, it’s an MMO, but progression is capped and every player can reach the cap within a few hours of playing time, on level, skills and equipment. It’s stil there, it was the one landmark in terms of PvP MMOs for years and perhaps still is the best. The only drawback, it has no open PvP, only its instances, what’s known as “scenarios” to the WAR player.

    3. Another example, although quite dead by now, it was very successful at it’s time: Planetfall. All progression was horizontal. A new player would respawn after a death, pick his gear according to the limited number of equipment qualifications he has and go to fight. The veteran would only have more choices on which weapon to take, but could carry no more and no different ones than the new player. So, out on the battlefield, both would play at the very same conditions.

    I could bring several more examples, but most of them were defeated by the one that kills them all: time. But Guild Wars is still there, up and running. So i think it currently is the premium example on how a PvP MMO can run, for a long time, without any significant vertical progression. (The only vertical progression you can do after a week of playing are titles and the ranking ladder. But those apparently can keep people busy for years. )

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